1911.COM : General Concealed Carry Discussion : General Concealed Carry Discussion : Carry condition

Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 04:29 PM

As some of you know I bought a Sig Pro 2022. The pistol has no external safety, it is a single action double action. With the hammer back in single action mode there is about a quarter inch of slack in the trigger before it fires. I am thinking this would be similar to a Glock, however it does not have the Glock trigger. What I am wondering is would this be an unsafe condition to carry it in when I am carrying it in my crossbreed inside the waste band holster or should I always carry it with the hammer down and if I need to use it fire it double action. I need to know what condition I should have it in when I practice drawing and firing it.

Thanks

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 04:36 PM

I'd have to say that if you carry 'cocked', then you should have at least one form of safety on the pistol. Otherwise, an accidental discharge is a reality, especially during draw or re-holstering. With your gun, I'd carry in DA mode. That long trigger pull is the only safety you have.

In a DAO, I don't feel the need for an external safety.

In a DA/SA, you can carry in two modes: 'Cocked and Locked' or 'DA and Unlocked'.

External Safeties get fumbled sometimes on draw. I'm not a huge of fan of 'Cocked and Locked' on DA/SA pistols just to get the accuracy on the first shot. Most engagements are 'punch' type shots in the first place. Just draw and pull through the DA sequence.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 04:40 PM

I'm with Room on this one.

DA/SA, just deal with that long pull for the first round. Chances are that when you need to draw down, your adrenaline will be so high that you don't even notice the longer pull. But, just to make sure, do some practice with DA mode.

About the only pistol I'm comfortable carrying cocked and locked is the 1911, really. Multiple safeties, etc., just make me feel a lot better about it.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 04:44 PM

I never carry with a round in the chamber (my old J-frame aside), I figure that I'll have enough time to rack the slide if needed....I practice and can do it as I draw. This is the only way that I know 100% that I am not going to have an accidental discharge.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 04:51 PM

I looked up your model and it is does have an actual double action pull, so I would say double action is safer than single action in that it would take a stronger first shot trigger pull which may be enough to prevent accidental fire (just watch for a slipping trigger finger on quick draws). I usually have my 1911 on me, which I carry single action, chambered, with safety on, but when I do carry a non-1911 style like my M&P 9c, I carry without one chambered for safety.

From Sig site:

The Sig Pro comes standard as a double-action/single action pistol with 10 lb and 4.5 lb trigger pulls, respectively.

You say you would carry in a holster, so as long as the holster completely covers the trigger guard, then I say you are fine either, but DA will give you an extra hair of security at really no cost. I can almost guarantee you will not feel the difference in 4.5 and 10 lb trigger pull on your first shot if you ever need your gun in a self defense setting. At rest while practicing sure, but with adrenaline pumping, no.

EDIT => Must be a slow day, three responses in the little time it took me to type that... :)

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 07:12 PM

i dont carry with a round chambered either. i just dont feel comfortable doing it and im with you ryan on its the only way i know forsure i wont have an accidental discharge.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 07:25 PM

i accidentally discharge in my pants sometimes....

I dont carry my DB380 with a round in the chamber, But I do carry my USP .40c loaded, yet with the hammer de-cocked, its the safest thing. it really all depends on your gun. for you case though, i would leave the it de-cocked and carry that way just to be on the safe side.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 08:54 PM

I've been getting use to carrying my M&P9c and my G23 with a round chambered. I feel a kydex holster provides plenty of trigger protection. In your case being a da/sa with a hammer I would say chambered with the hammer down OR go with a holster similar to 1911 holsters that have a strap to keep the hammer cocked and secured.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 09:01 PM

Since fine motor skills usually disappear under stress, carrying the Sig Pro 2022 cocked would be like carrying a Revolver cocked. This will set up dangerous conditions for serious injury or death. I wouldn't think any professional would carry this way, as well as for self defense. Keep in mind Murphy's Law: If something can go wrong, it will. You should also know that Murphy was an optimist.

I've owned a couple of Sigs and I really like them. But I sold them both because of the DA/SA mechanism. But that is me. I couldn't transition quickly enough from the first DA pull to the different action pull and I want the first shot and second shot on target. I think it would take a LOT of practice to master. I know that a number of law enforcement agencies use the Sig, and maybe they have a different take.

So, I carry a 1911 SA, condition 1, or a Glock 23 "DA" or a revolver and there is no need to adjust for the different pull on the same firearm. The KISS technique.

I think I heard somewhere that Israeli forces carry with chamber empty and practice racking the slide on the draw. Is that correct?

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 09:15 PM

From what I've heard it's a CT thing for the Israelis ... not sure how their regular forces do it, but yeah, the CT teams ... they do it that way. Or so I've heard.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 09:52 PM

The Sig Pro was not designed to be carried locked and cocked, it should be carried hammer down, if it was meant to be carried locked and cocked it would have additional safety features to accommodate that style of carry. The answer to the double action pull is practice, practice, practice.... If you practice enough your first shot double action and your follow up shots will be on target. Quality of training does not always lie in how much you train, but how you train. Personally I believe in one in the pipe. One less thing to think about when the shit hits the fan.

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 10:15 PM

As a career and life-long gun toter who has carried a Sig SA/DA pistol for over 10 years and actually had to use it.... LGPD909 is correct. I am also a Sig factory trained armorer (have been for almost 15 years), and the Sig SA/DA pistols were designed to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber. First shot fired DA. I can tell you first hand that when the shit hits the fan, the 10 pount DA trigger is not noticed... and unless you only carry without a chambered round and practice that extra loading step each and every time you draw, you will likely fumble it or forget it under stress... Having to rack the slide also causes added potential for malfunction when you least need it, as well as reduces your ability to respond to the potential of having to use the gun at contact distance, as you might not have the room or free hand available to rack the slide in order to be able to use the gun.... For defensive purposes, your handgun should be able to be used single handedly, with either hand, from a tucked in "weapons retention" position all the way out to arms length. You can't bet your life that you will have both hands available to defend yourself with during a fight. How are you going to rack the slide to chamber a round if your support hand is busy wrestling with the dirt-bag's knife hand as he tries to stab you? Food for thought.....

-Tac

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Posted: Aug 31st 2010, 11:21 PM

I've never understood why the Israelis carry like that. I don't think it's a good idea for the average civilian. Like the safety fumble, the rack fumble will happen too. It's one more thing to go wrong with Murphy on your shoulder. Like TAC stated, it also requires two hands. For a civilian getting jumped, you may not have both hands free. Practice the art of distraction with your weak side while you draw with your strong side. It's a great way to draw the eyes of the assailant off what you are actually doing....pulling a pain pill out for them.

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Posted: Sep 1st 2010, 08:11 AM

All I can add is I wouldn't do it.......Carry it DA and practice DA.

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Posted: Sep 6th 2010, 11:38 AM

I will not carry any handgun that does not have a round in the chamber, ready to fire. It's not safe, it doesn't make sense, and it's a terrible idea.

If you're carrying concealed, which you should be, then you need to have a round in the chamber. Period. At home, that's different story, especially if you have younger children around. But out in public, I would never, ever consider carrying a weapon that doesn't have a round already chambered.

That said, you must also consider that I, as well as a few others here, carry a handgun due to my job, so my level of experience in handling loaded firearms is much higher than a person who only carries because they have a CCW permit, and who doesn't work in my chosen occupation.

The only way you're ever going to feel comfortable and safer is if you practice drawing and holstering your weapon, make up scenarios and train for them, look in the mirror while watching yourself draw your weapon, and then do the same but not in front of the mirror. If you do these things, then, in the event that you do have to draw your weapon in self-defense, it will be much more natural and fluid, and safer because you did it.

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Posted: Apr 17th 2011, 08:54 PM

I'm with Suncat, Always have a round in the chamber of a gun carried on your person.

For practicing drawing from the holster at home, keep it unloaded. You don't need bullets to point a gun at the mirror.

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Posted: Apr 17th 2011, 11:25 PM

The problem with assuming you can rack the slide when you need the gun, no matter how much you practice, is that you can never practice under real conditions. I mean when the adrenaline is pumping and your heart and your mind are racing at mach speeds. Suddenly things you can do easily under calm conditions become impossible.

I don't like manual safeties for the same reason. There was recently a case on the news where a convenience store clerk was shot and killed. A guy came into the store and pulled a gun out of his pants. Security video showed that the clerk, who was also armed, actually drew before the bad guy and had him dead to rights. But the video then showed the clerk making motions as if he was repeatedly pulling the trigger on his gun, just before the bad guy shot him to death. When police arrived, they found the clerk dead, gun still in his hand, safety still on.

In my humble opinion, the number one safety feature to look for in any automatic is a firing pin safety. One that blocks the firing pin and physically prevents it from striking the primer of a chambered round, unless the trigger is fully pulled. Short of a mechanical malfunction, there is absolutely no way for a gun so equipped to discharge accidentally, no matter what happens. Even if the hammer falls, the gun won't fire. Unless the trigger is pulled. And in that regard, another mandatory piece of equipment is a holster that keeps the trigger covered, and your finger (and anything else) away from it until after the gun is drawn. With those two features, any gun is reasonably safe to carry, loaded and cocked.

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Posted: Apr 23rd 2011, 05:05 PM

^^^^^^^ Which is why I carry a SA/DA semi-auto, either my department issue H&K USP Compact or my Sig P229, both in .40 caliber S&W so that I can carry a loaded handgun that will be ready to use should that need arise, God forbid. Or a fully loaded revolver like my S&W Model 37.

If I was to ever have to be involved in another shooting incident, I do not want to have to worry about 'racking' a round into an empty chamber or rotating a cylinder on a revolver off of an empty cylinder chamber when I can use, and may need all 5 rounds. Wasted time and motion, unnecessary and undue noise, and movement that will draw unwarranted attention from the bad guy(s), especially if I'm fortunate enough to have a small element of surprise working for me in my favor.

JMHO. Yours may differ, but that's my opinion and why I do it the way I do.

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Posted: Sep 11th 2011, 10:15 PM

When I am carrying my Beretta PX4 Storm SC, the hammer is in the down (first notch position) and chambered, safety off. When I carry my 1911 commander, it is cocked and locked.

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Posted: Sep 11th 2011, 11:40 PM

I now carry with a round chambered. I figure with proper handling I'm fine. I cant count on having both hands available to rack the slide when needed....

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