1911.COM : General Concealed Carry Discussion : General Concealed Carry Discussion : Laser grip yes or no

Posted: Mar 18th 2010, 10:43 PM

I am looking at a Ruger LCR for a CCW. One comes with the standard grip or for and extra $200 you can get one with a laser grip. My question, is it worth the extra $200 for the laser. Is $200 out of line for a laser grip? Would having a laser make the difference in defending myself if I ever had to use the gun. Why or why not would you want a laser grip on your CCW. Looking for all the pros and cons of laser grips. Thanks.

Joined:
Location:

Jan 6th 08
MN US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 08:31 AM

Hey lasers may save your life.....not to mention they are alot quicker aiming..
Bad guy sees the dot on his chest....9 out of 10 usually flee in fear....it is the tenth one you have to shoot....

............

Joined:
Location:

Jun 8th 09
NE US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 08:32 AM

I've got the crimson trace grips on my m9 at work. I like the feel of the grip but once you get any oil down in the laser it destroys the lens. It has happened to 90% of the laser grips we have, I'm about to switch it over to some hogue grips without the laser to keep the feel. I personally don't think they are worth it and they are a pain to zero.

pros: gives you a nice rubbergrip, cool points go up, lasers are great deturrants for bad guys

cons: batteries go dead, hard to zero, oil destroys lens, rubber grips wear out and rip

Joined:
Location:

Feb 28th 09
OH US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 09:12 AM

There are certain questions that will always start debates amongst gun owners. 'Should I carry an automatic or a revolver?'....'Is a full length guide rod better for a 1911?' to name just a couple. And 'Do I need a laser?' is another. And with all such arguments, the answer is very much a matter of personal opinion. I don't use them for a couple of reasons.

There are those who will say they help you get on tartget. No aiming. Just put the dot on the target and pull the trigger. That may be true when you are practicing, and your mind isn't moving at warp speed. But, experience shows that most people involved in a self defense situation, who had a laser on their gun, couldn't even tell you afterward if the laser was even working. Experience also shows that the vast majority of shots fired in self defense are unaimed. If you take the time to think about what you're doing, you may be the one stopping a bullet. So I think the best thing, when it comes to aiming, is to practice to the point where it becomes automatic. Anyone can point their finger at someone across the room, without having to consciously think about it. And with practice, you can do the same with a gun. There are tons of arguments about which sights are best on a gun. Sights are great for target practice, but when the SHTF, I don't plan on using them. I put snap caps in my gun and walk around the house, when no one is home. I practice putting my gun on target and firing, as quickly as possible. Without thought. Without aiming. I do the same at the range. I do it again and again. I think that has a better chance of keeping me alive than a gadget on my gun.

Which brings me to the other point. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid. It's why I like revolvers. Simplicity. No buttons, levers, toys or gadgets to get between me and my objective. Point...pull trigger. To me, lasers are just one more thing you have to think about. One more thing to get in the way of accomplishing the task at hand, putting a bullet in someone who may be trying to put one in you. My CCW instructor urged me to put a laser on my gun. To demonstrate its usefulness, he drew his piece. Ooops. Laser didn't work. Dead battery? Dirty contacts? Malfunctioning switch? Who knows? If you become dependent on a laser to help you aim, and that laser fails when you need it the most, the results could be disastrous. Again, if you adhere to the three P's.....Practice, Practice, Practice....you can quickly get to the point where you don't have to depend on things like lasers.

Of course, there are those who will disagree. And that's cool. Like I said, this is one of those issues that is simply a matter of personal opinion. And it's impossible to say that one viewpoint is more valid than another. What works for one, may not work for another.

Joined:
Location:

Feb 11th 10
MO US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 10:08 AM

What Revolver Guy said :

I'd go without the laser.......I sometimes carry a little S&W Air Weight - It's a simple Point/Shoot little Revolver for close range, Really don't need a laser, just practice and good 'Muscle Memory' that comes with practice......I think a lot of confrontations that go bad end up at 'Point Blank' range anyway - You may find yourself shooting thru a jacket or pants pocket where a laser isn't going to help.

Just my .02 cents...............

Joined:
Location:

May 31st 09
FL US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 11:03 AM

RevolverGuy,

Great insight and wisdom.

My .02;

Lasers are great when you are going into a situation that you are already prepared for mentally. I don't mean you've planned and prepped, but you have time to pull and go with some time between pulling the trigger. Your mind is thinking follow the dot and put the dot on center of mass. RG hit it on the head when he talks about quick action draw and shoot situations. If you have to hunt for sight picture, or in this case the laser dot, you've already lost in a quick action event. It should be second nature and muscle memory that puts muzzle on center of mass. Reactionary shooting where something has to be acquired by the eye slows down the response. When the adrenaline lets loose, the mind gets tunnel vision. You most likely won't even know how many times you pulled the trigger. That being said, anything can be trained for with enough repetition; however, Gunrunner is right about batteries failing and lasers coming out of zero. If you are laser reliant and that happens at a critical time, you are screwed. I believe it's Recoil that stresses iron sight proficiency on the AR, and this is true with any firearm. The laser has it's place, but know it's drawbacks and be aware of your dependencies if you go that route.

I see one real benefit of the laser being that when used in dark or rapidly changing ambient light conditions, the eye can be adjusting and still acquiring the laser dot long before proper focus on the front blade. That being said, you can fall back on the muscle memory second nature aspects of practice practice practice. I choose not put a laser on any of my pistols.

Joined:
Location:

Jan 8th 09
VA US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 01:36 PM

RG,

My thinking is in alignment with you, though I have one exception. I put laser grips on my nightstand piece (along with night sights). I did this because I have piss poor vision. I wear contacts during the day and keep a pair of glasses on the same nightstand. So in a SHTF situation, if all goes to plan (which often doesn't), I'll have time to find my glasses, put them on, aim and shoot. I put the laser grips as a fall back in case I can't use my glasses (drop and step on them fumbling to wake up at 3am for example). Even with my crap vision, I can see COM of the blurry intruder and I can see where the laser is pointing.

So while I do agree 100% don't rely on gadgets and get the fundamentals down, anyone with similar vision as mine may want to consider laser grips as a fall back safety.

Joined:
Location:

Jan 7th 09
LA US

Posted: Mar 19th 2010, 05:39 PM

most of my practice occurs at an outdoor range during daylight hours,
and a laser is all but useless. during indoor dryfire practice, i will
rely on tritium night sights on two of my autos,[ 9 & 45 ] and fiber optic on a
revolver [ S&W PD 329 in 44mag loaded w/ 44 Special golddots ]
and/or the 12 gauge with a Surefire mounted.
My thinking is that if the threat is eminent and you can identify who it is,
you're going to shove that gun forward and fire as soon as you're aligned
in a point and shoot stance and then bring the gun up to acquire a flash sight
picture if the threat is still standing. I think if there is time to align a laser
on target then there is time to align your night site. If the perp shines a light on you, you won't see your laser on the target and you'll have to go to plan B
Also a laser won't give you true reading through glass, or so i've read,
haven't actually tried it. So i'm wondering if the LCR offer's night sights as an
option and what would be that cost?

Joined:
Location:

Nov 29th 08
CT US

Posted: Mar 20th 2010, 09:50 AM

After we started this thread I got to handle an LCR yesterday.......They're OK and cool looking but I much prefer the S&W like my old AirWeight Mod 38 with the shrouded hammer, I put a set of Uncle Mike's on it with the finger grooves and it fits my hand perfectly.

Ranger I don't think any of these J Frame style Revolvers can come with a Night Sight.......That LCR I looked at has the standard fair on it - Though I'm wondering if the front sight is pinned on and someone will offer a replacement front sight with tritium insert ???

Joined:
Location:

May 31st 09
FL US

Posted: Apr 6th 2010, 04:33 PM

In my opinion, if $200 dollars isn't going to break you, then why not have one more tool to save you life.

Muggings rarely happen on bright sunny days. Predators know that you have an advantage if you can see them coming and can react to them closing the distance. I agree that there is very little advantage to a laser in bright light. However, in a dimly lit parking lot after dark or at dusk, you will pick up a laser dot much faster than tritium night sights.

Something else to think about, all of us have seen the news stories of the 4-8 year old kid killed in the crossfire. You are responsible for ever bullet you turn loose. NO EXCEPTIONS. After you shoot a 6 year old in the head in the mall parking lot, no one will care that some guy was trying to rob you at knife point. That laser dot may be the only aiming point you have. It allows to cover the bad guy with your muzzle even before the pistol comes up to eye level. In bad light, you may not be able to find your front sight but chances are good that you will be able to find the dot. It also makes sense that if the dot is not on the bad guy and you pull the trigger, you are not going to get a hit. The bad guy is going to have tunnel vision and exclusionary hearing just like you are and the noise of your pistol isn't going to stop the fight. Good solid hits are what you need.

My wife carries a S&W 642 Air Weight with Crimson Trace laser grips and she is very comfortable with it. She doesn't get to practice as much as a lot of us and the grips give her an advantage in a life or death fight. The gun still has the sights if the laser fails so i say why not have both.

Joined:
Location:

Jan 12th 09
MT US

Posted: Apr 6th 2010, 07:57 PM

This is one of those subjects if you ask 10 different people you'll get 12 different opinions.

But the point I always make is that the laser sites are great, when you are practicing and under no stress. So many people believe that when the SHTF, they're going to be cool, calm and collected, and think about every thing they do. Wrong. It's a proven fact that in a life or death situation, most people can't even tell you how many shots they fired. And that includes LEO's. If your wife is in a real situation, I doubt she'll even know if the laser was on, much less where it was pointing. Remember, many self defense situations happen in a flash. Take the time to draw a good sight picture, no matter what kind of sight you use, and you risk the chance that you'll be the one stopping the bullet. A quick first shot, even if you miss, will at the very least rattle your opponent. Maybe even prompt him to flee. Also, consider the condition the average person is going to be in. Adrenalin is pumping, and your nervous as hell. With a laser, that little red dot will be dancing all over the place. Time spent trying to get it centered on your target could mean that the last thing you'll see is the other guy's muzzle flash. I stick by the argument that if you are going to be using a gun for self defense, forget the gadgets. You HAVE to practice until drawing and firing is automatic and can be done without thought. There are three things that will give you the best chance of putting that bullet where it needs to go, without stopping one yourself...practice, practice and practice.

As to shooting the kid in the head in the parking lot. I'm not going to say you should be absolutely sure what's down range. Because, as I've already said, in a real situation, all that flushes down the crapper. BUT. You shouldn't be pulling the trigger on a gun, unless your life, or someone else's is in imminent danger. You pull that trigger ONLY when you have no other choice. And if you are in that situation, you have to do what you have to do. Noone wants to injure any innocent person, least of all a kid. But if you aren't willing to accept that risk, when you're own life or someone else's is on the line, than you shouldn't be carrying a gun, at all. Not saying that I don't care if I hit someone else. Not saying that it wouldn't mentally destroy me. I pray that if it happens to me, God will guide my hand. But the risk is always there. It goes with the program. And if I'm not willing to take that risk, better to forget the gun. I had an instructor once who, when addressing another student, said 'If you're going to be thinking about all that crap, you're better off throwing the gun at the guy and running like hell'.

But then that's just my opinion, for what it's worth. Like I said, there are many different opinions. And one person's pill is another person's poison.

Joined:
Location:

Feb 11th 10
MO US

Posted: Apr 8th 2010, 06:56 AM

I can definitely see your point, RevolverGuy, and I respect your opinion.

This is one of those things that we just disagree on. I am a firearms instructor, armorer, and State Trooper. I personally have been in several life and death situations though by the grace of God I have not had to drop the hammer.

I have been to several basic training courses and instructor courses. I personally have talked to well respected instructors who feel that lasers give you an advantage in a gunfight in low light conditions. I can also say that very few instructors in today's world advocate instinctive shooting without the use of sights. All the instructors that I know of tell you to get a sight picture before you pull the trigger (even the instructors who have lived through a gunfight).

Inside of 10 feet, you can use the silhouette of your handgun for your sight picture. Put it center mass and pull the trigger. From 3 to 7 yards, you can put the front sight on the center mass of the bad guy and get combat effective hits. Out in the 10 to 15 yard range you should be picking up both sights before you fire. The laser works as a sight because you can put it on the target from unconventional positions, exactly like you are talking about. A good laser grip is activated when you close your hand around the grip and this allows you to soot from below the line of sight once the dot is on the bad guy. Same thing you are talking about but now you know where the bullet is going. If you train this way, even though you may not remember your sights or dot after the fight, your subconscious will pick them up and you will get good hits.

Instinctive shooting was useful when the guns being carried were Colt Single Action Army 'Peacemakers' with simple front blades for sights. It was also useful in the jungles of Viet Nam where the enemy could appear from only feet away and no one cared about collateral damage. In a crowded mall, a parking lot, restaurant, church, or local school (where most recent shootings have occurred) there is no room for 'spray and pray'. Put the sight or in this case the dot on the bad guy before you pull the trigger.

In most states, you get 2-5 (minimum) for negligent homicide. Better to be a dead hero than kill an inocent bystander.

Joined:
Location:

Jan 12th 09
MT US

Posted: Apr 8th 2010, 07:29 PM

This is a great thread as I myself have been contemplating a laser for my girlfriends pistol. She doesn't practice very much but doesn't find range time as enjoyable as I do. She does keep my kimber ultra carry nearby when I am at work for my two days but she isn't very comfortable with the night sights I put on.

Joined:
Location:

May 18th 09
AZ US

Posted: Apr 9th 2010, 04:02 PM

Without getting all long winded and jumping into the debate... The two guns that I am most likely to use in a honest-to-God-no-shit gun fight are my Sig P220R (duty pistol) and my S&W 337 j-frame .38 spl (back up gun). Both are equipped with Crimson Trace laser grips. I do not rely on them soley, but use them as an additional tool in conjunction with my sights, my training, my experience and human nature (you look at what is going to hurt you). I have been using them for years (actually wore out one set and had to replace them) and have never had them fail when I needed them. And yes, I have used them under adrenalin during real life no-shit-situations. (I have not actually shot anyone with them... yet.) $250 is cheap insurance if it puts one percent of an advantage in my court when the balloon goes up.

Your milage may vary....

-Tac

Joined:
Location:

Jul 21st 09
AZ US

Posted: Apr 11th 2010, 01:02 PM

I have been seriously thinking about getting a LaserMax for my Sig Sauer P229. Crimson Trace makes a great product, but I really do not want to change the grips on my Sig. Anybody here have any experience with LaserMax and their products?

Joined:
Location:

Sep 20th 09
FL US

Posted: Apr 12th 2010, 03:39 AM

Suncat...

I used the Lasermax guiderod laser system on a Glock 22 fora short period. We equipped our entire SWAT team with them for use when shooting around the ballistic sheild. They didn't last long. We had all kinds of switch problems with them, went through batteries like they were free and no one liked the fact that they were not 'zeroable' to the weapon. They always shot 'around the dot' and depending on where you put the laser module back in after cleaning the gun, that location changed. (3 o'clock, 3 inches out from the dot one day, clean the gun and reassemble and now it shoots 7 o'clock, 5 inches out....)

Needless to say, they were 'novel', but didn't get alot of use.

If your P229 is your uniformed duty pistol, and you want a bit of free advice, I would go with either a light/laser combo that is zero-able to the pistol (Streamlight or Sure Fire make great versions) Or... go with the CT laser grips, if a light/laser combo isn't possible. Either one will allow you to zero the laser to the impact of your ammo, at which ever distance you prefer, without removing factory parts from the gun. (Laser Max requires a replacement take down lever)

Just my dos centavos..

-Tac

Joined:
Location:

Jul 21st 09
AZ US

Posted: Apr 30th 2010, 10:02 AM

Have them on my G30. Makes the grip a bit fatter. like them. good adjunct. Not a replacement for proper sight picture but I will take any advantage I can get

Puttin them on my Kimber when funds allow.

Joined:
Location:

Apr 30th 10
MD US

Posted: May 9th 2010, 12:55 PM

Thanks Tac. As I alluded to, I was just thinking about it, and after reading your reply, I've pretty much decided against LaserMax. Still not crazy about the CrimsonTrace alternative either, don't like the idea of monkeying around with grips that work for me. Really concerned that the grips would change my grip with the Sig P229. Guess I'll just leave it alone. It's worked up to this point, so no need to fix what ain't broke.

I don't carry my Sig too much anymore anyway. Since the Sheriff issued me the H&K USP Compact I just carry it everywhere now. It's his weapon, not mine, so if I have to use it, it's department issued and not my personal weapon, therefore, not my problem. I'm authorized and mandated by Florida statute and departmental P&P as a LEO to carry off duty anyway, so I just use theirs. That's why they issued it to me. And less 'wear-n-tear' on my personal weapon.

Joined:
Location:

Sep 20th 09
FL US