1911.COM : General Discussion & Everything Else : General Discussion & Everything Else : 40 vs 45

Posted: Aug 20th 2009, 07:15 AM

You all have given me some great advise on the .45, I have been looking at the XDM but it only come in 9mm and .40. I have also read that in the XDM does not have a .45 in the horizon. What can anyone tell me what the difference will be between the two. Also lately has it been hard to get ammo for either caliber.

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Posted: Aug 20th 2009, 09:54 AM

I'll leave all the technical stuff to the boys with more toys than I!

I like the .40 for a few reasons:
1) More narrow pistol grip vs. capacity.
2) Higher capacity.
3) Bigger hole than 9mm round.

I like the .45 for a few reasons:
1) Bigger hole than 9mm.
2) Bigger hole than 40.
3)Perceivably more manageable recoil than 40.

4) With 230 grains of love, it packs a helluva wallup.

5) Traditional 1911's are sexy!

Recoil

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Posted: Aug 20th 2009, 10:21 PM

I have extensive experience with the .40 s&w and find it the best round of the three and here's why:

I have seen people come in to the trauma center with 12 9mm wounds and survive. Now this is taking into account that gang bangers use FMJ because it's cheaper than high dollar bone and nerve crushing hollow points. I have never seen a victim of multiple .40 s&w make it to the hospital, they are processed on the scene and sent to the morgue.

The .45, while a harder hitting round and more suitable to outdoor combat situations, has too loud of a report for interior defensive situations. You will blow your eardrums out if you shoot a .45 in a interior tight space like a hallway or from inside your car. This also happens with the .357mag, and .44mag. The noise can incapacitate you.

I shot over 5000 rounds of .40 s&w from my glock 22 while training for idpa. I then shot another 2000 rounds from my Browning high power .40 s&w. I never had a misfire or failure to cycle. I currently carry a walther p99 in .40 s&w and while I find the Browning High Power to be the finest pistol I have ever owned for carry and defensive pistol situations, the P99 doesn't require me to train as much because of the "cocked and locked" situation. I failed to drop the safety twice during training and retired the HP.

9mm and even .380 can be good carry pistols with the proper ammunition and training, but I believe the .40 s&w to be the best all around carry.

.40 ammo is mostly very available and even a good round to start with reloading if thats your thing. It's stopping power is superb, and it's report and recoil tolerable.

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Posted: Aug 20th 2009, 10:45 PM

Splat....

Everyone has their favorite and I don't completely disagree with yours, but I have issue with your comment regarding the .45, .357 and .44 being to loud for interior defensive situations. I started my L.E. career with a revolver and shot indoors routinely. I have now carried a .45 as my duty weapon for 10 years (.40 cal before that for about 5 years) and I have lost count of how many rounds I have either fired myself or been standing next to someone else who was shooting indoors with these guns. This includes indoor shooting ranges, indoor shooting houses, bullet trap equipped training areas inside foreclosed residential properties and just about every type of vehicle imaginable, to inlcude cars, trucks, busses and aircraft. Handguns are all relatively in the same realm as far as muzzle blast goes. The .223/5.56 is a big step up in muzzle blast and even it doesn't "incapacitate" the shooter.

I have taught firearms at the state police academyoff and onover the last10 years and have spent alot of time shooting from cars, or in shooting from steel walled shoot houses or teaching others to do so and I have never seen/heard of anyone "blowing their ear drums out". Even those who either forget thier ear protection or loose it during the drills, are not injured by the noise beyond ringing ears for a short period. This includes the 9mm and .40 cal shooters.

-Tac

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 01:57 AM

In a defensive situation too, your will be in such a state of mind where the sound doesnt factor in like it might on a range - even if your indoors. Your going to be so focused on something else that it is almost ignored - I won't say silent, but your not going to be paying attention to it regardless of volume. Sound alone won't incapacitate you (talking firearms, yes, I know about sound-based weapons). It would take a hell of a lot bigger of a gun before the non-sound issues became a problem.

Muzzle flash.. that can be an issue. If your in a dark house, that first shot depending on your platform might make it a little hard to see for a few.

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 02:37 AM

The .45 ACP has been the heaviest hitter since Mr. JM Browning developed the concept in 1900. His is the standard of the industry standard'sdevelopment concerning the semi-automatic handgun. I'm not too certain the history behind the .40 auto, but it came along much later in the cross between the .38 and .45 calibers. Basically, from what I've understood, it gives the stopping power of the .45 with the reduced recoil of the .38. In my opinion, it's on a parallel with the change between .45 to 9mm.

Personally, my .45 is myown standard, it's a shooter's handgun. The .40 was developed to give female LE officers and smaller-framed military members the ability to have the "Bigmouth" without the heavy kick while providing said with a bigger round than the 9mm. A close friend of mine bought a Sig 229, .40 and now wishes he'd bought an M1911. A certain amount of prestige comes with owning a.45 slabsides. A lot of police officers and feds have reverted to the .45 cal because of it's legendary stopping power. In the end, it's a matter of taste and controlling your sidearm. Back in the 70's and early 80's, a lot of women qualed with the .45, so the newer generation shooters can't trumpet over the .40 or 9mm too loudly.

FWIW, I own both.

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 11:07 AM

I feel that my Glock 22 recoils more than my Colt .45. Maybe the lighter weight of the Glock makes it a perceived feeling.

Foxtrot is dead on with his assessment of loudness. My case in point, whenever I shoot anything, .22 to 30-06 at a target, I have earplugs, or other hearing protection (mickey ears). When I'm hunting, I don't wear anything like that, or have plugs. I can shoot my high power rifles at a deer and my ears don't even ring afterward. I can shoot at a target and forget to put in my ears and I'm deaf for 5 minutes. I don't know how or why that fact is true, but it is. I'm sure others have experienced it also.

CJ, I doubt the .40 was made with chicks in mind. I've heard Mempilot's story before on other forums and I've read links to FBI sites and other LEO sites that mentioned the same thing he did. The 10mm round had a lot to do with the .40's inception.

Honestly fellas, I'll take any of the three (9, .40 or .45) in a pinch. Whenever I say "pinch", I mean that some sonofabitch has come for some friction or breaking into my home and I'm gonna tax his ass! Splat mentioned guys coming in with a magazine full of lead in them and they are still alive. I'm sure he's seen that before, but I can bet that the asshole crackhead gangbanger stopped doing whatever he was doing to get his ass shot when the shooter started poking holes in him! As Splat also alluded to, I won't be using fmj's either!

Great reading on all the posts. Thanks fellas.

Recoil

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 11:22 AM

Factual correction:

The 40 was designed on the 10mm Auto frame, which was designed after the Florida shooting in the 1980's. The FBI ran tests and determined that more penetration would have been a solution to that crisis (shooters were not on anything, took multiple hits without going down), and that the solution to their problem was 10mm Auto. Well, FBI agents kept complaining about recoil / requesting downloaded rounds, ammo mfg companies started producing 10mm "light" loads, and eventually s&w determined that if they were loading them light, they might as well cut the case down so it would fit into a 9mm frame. And the 40s&w was born.
That's your ultra-short version.

Nothing to do with 45ACP or female officers not "handling" 45ACP. Fact of it is, 40s&w and 45ACP at least in modern loadings, have almost identical performance in terms of muzzle energy. Recoil is only slightly different between the two - take the same gun and swap calibers (keeping bullet weighs as close as possible), you will have a hard time distinguishing a difference.

Also the standard cartridge of the time prior to the 10mm (FBI) was the 9x19 luger, not the 45 ACP.

As a last note, with modern ammunition there is very little difference between the stopping power of 9x19 luger, 40 s&w and 45 ACP. I know, you don't believe me. They all have very similar penetration depths and permanent wound cavities. I've seen the calibrated ballistic gelatin of many of them. There are minute advantages to each, that apply in unique situations. There are a few select situations where a defensive loaded 9x19 would stop a perp where the same 40-45 bullet would not have, believe it or not. Reality is though, because they are close enough - a round that would kill or stop a perp with a 45, would do it with a 40, or a 9. None of them accommodate misses, and none of them would "kill or stop" a man better than the others if you miss a vital area by more than just a few inches. Accuracy, speed of first shot, control, repeatability matters more than the strength of the caliber itself. Note: I'm not talking ball or FMJ rounds. Defensive rated ammunition ONLY.

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 12:50 PM

I have long subscribed to the old adage.... "A 9mm hollow point MIGHT expand, but a .45 Hollow point will NEVER shrink."

My usual answer when asked why I carry a .45.......? Because they don't make a ".46"......

In actuality, it's shot placement over caliber everytime. I have seen guys dropped with .22 long rifles and I have seen guys walking around after taking a full load from a 12 ga. in the chest...

I happen to shoot the .45 better. Thats it. I like the recoil impulse of the .45 (soft push) over the .40 (quick snap).

As for the "women can't shoot the .45" comment..... Horse hockey! I have trained numerous women shooters to shoot the .45. My department's issue handgun is the Sig P220 .45 and we have 20 female officers carrying it and qualifying with it well. Several shoot expert with it evertime they come out to the range.

-Tac

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 01:19 PM

Tac,

At least for me, your comment: "A 9mm hollow point MIGHT expand, but a .45 Hollow point will NEVER shrink." has got to be in the top 3 all time most applicable quotes here on the site. It is a solid and true statement if I ever heard one!!!!! I'm going to use it in the future. Hope you don't have the copyright on it, if you do, well, I'll be violating it!

Also, your description of the .45's "soft push" vs. the .40's "quick snap" were the words I've been looking for to describe the differences in the two.Thanks.

Foxtrot,

Thanks for the clarification. As usual, you chimed in with the gospel, the gospel and nothing but the gospel. 'Preciate it.

I had a Marine tell me once that if I ever found myself in a firefight and could remember to keep my wits about me, aim carefully (even when under fire), squeeze gently (even while still being under fire), the odds of me whacking the bad guy before he gets me (in his rush to just put lead down range) increases exponentially. Since I never had anyone shooting at me directly, I hope I can adhere to his words when/if the time ever comes.

Recoil

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 04:30 PM

I love the feel of squeezing off rounds from a .45 over the .40. The .40 does have a SNAP feeling to it where as the .45 does seem to just PUSH backward. With any SHORT barrel pistol you are going to get some snap...but with most standard lengths I have shot...the snap was with the .40.

Thanks for the read TAC...

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Posted: Aug 21st 2009, 10:23 PM

Tac,

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more qualified than myself to make such a judgement.

I actually saw a freind of mine blow his ear drums out with after shooting a .357mag out the passenger window while sitting in the drivers seat of a small pick up. While it didn't cause permanant damage, it took him about 6 weeks to get his hearing back and it stunned him a bit.

Shot placement is everything. and training with what ever you carry is more important than caliber, I think we can all agree.

I disagree with you about the .223 report though from my personal experience. A revolver especially the .357 has a greater report in my experience. Did you shot .38s from your .357 like I did? I found it was much easier to control and had less bang.

I always wear hearing protection when practicing but never when hunting. If the muzzle is pointed outside of whatever cover you are in (like a deer stand or shooting house) the gases are mostly expelled outside. The .357 I owned (Ruger GP100) leaked gases around the cylinder some, especially when shooting magnum loads.

My ears ring when I am hunting and I shoot my .50 muzzle loader, as well as my 7mm Mag. I wouldn't want to shoot them from inside.

Anyway, mute argument. It goes to preference. You should carry what you are comfortable carrying and you should train regularly. Take all the classes you can, and learn all you can from others. If it comes down to you having to save you own life or others, you don't want to be less competent than your opponent.

Very true, an expert with a .25 auto will kill a novice with a .44mag anyday

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Posted: Aug 23rd 2009, 01:16 AM

Okay, fine, while I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, I posted what I've been told. You J-holes can hammer me if you want to, knuckleheads,the whole thing made sense when It was presented to me. I still stand behind my Bigmouth (with my big mouth), and think it will be, has been, and always will be, superior to the .40. Now, that's my stand and I'll stand behind it and take all comers who tell me I'm wrong. The OP asked which was better and I say the .45 ACP, all the way.

If you want to bandy semantics, talk to the ladies on the site.

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Posted: Aug 23rd 2009, 01:18 AM

I love a good rhubarb, this is fun. Ain't had one of these in a while.

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Posted: Aug 24th 2009, 11:41 PM

I've had all three calibers.I'll take the .40cal.I sold the .9mm and the .45acp.My Glock 23 has 2500 rounds and counting with only [two failures. For those on a macho trip and think bigger is always better,why aren't you packing a Desert Eagle .50AE or .500 revolver?They all have their advantages and disadvantages.Just make sure you buy what you can handle and control accurately and make sure it's reliable.A big hole means nothing if you can't hit what your aiming at.I will say I have seen visual proof that a .40s&w and a .45acp will penitrate better than a .9mm.

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Posted: Aug 25th 2009, 08:21 PM

Ha ha

Lively and long lived debate. A handgun is what you use to battle your way to your rifle. Cliche
but still valid. My wife's uncle, retired Marine and former city cop frequently sends me morgue
photos of perps who succumbed to gunshot [lead poisoning]. Most of them are police involved
justifiable shootings. Seen some cadavers with both 40S&W and 45acp holes from different officers
during the same incident that failed to immediately incapacitate the the hostile.
There is so many variables to take into account during a shooting as to make a finite choice as "best"
nearly impossible. I don't pack a S&W 500Mag because of over penetration problems. Only a spine
or cranial shot with enough energy to sever or explode will produce a DRT effect. A 9mm fmj has
over penetration problems. Thus the hollow point interest. Hollow points have a whole set of problems if they plug. From over to under penetration depending on what you need to penetrate. Thus the lg.
caliber position. How easy can you fire your 45 five in" with your weak hand repeatedly?
How many rounds make you comfortable, 8 or 20? Given my druthers, I prefer a 10mm, and pray it
only takes one. " Put a cap in his knee, Billy Bob" Be first and be accurate. Be safe!

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Posted: Aug 25th 2009, 09:37 PM

Some damned good points made there LR. 'Preciate it! There's always another angle or view out there.

Recoil

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Posted: Aug 26th 2009, 07:38 AM

LoneRanger makes an excellent point. Only in the USA do people dream of one shot kills. A handgun is a DEFENSIVE weapon. I'll say it again a handgun is a DEFENSIVE weapon. It almost never causes a single shot kill. Many americans poo poo the 9mm round yet it is the most commonly used round by police and militaries in the WORLD. Shot placement is what wins gun fights - period. A rifle is an offensive weapon. It will kill at a distance with more energy than a handgun. A handgun is for defending yourself as you try to exit the area. Forget the one shot myth that prevails in american culture.

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Posted: Aug 26th 2009, 01:25 PM

I carry a 9mm with Hornady TAP. If I ever have to fire my CC weapon I intend to place a couple shots into someones chest...and I intend to do it VERY quickly. When I go to the range I take two quick bursts until I retire a mag and then go back to single shot grouping...if I can put two rounds nearly on top of each other each time I burst under 20yds...I hope thats enough to stop an intruder, or asailant...god forbid I have to pull my weapon in public. I dont wait for the day to happen...I guess I am just trying to be prepared for it. Two years ago a boy my age was gunned down in the Wal-Mart parking lot my store is in...thugs shot him four times. Kid was buying dog food and diapers. Cameras showed him turn and face the gunman and surrender his keys...thats do or Die time if I have my CC on me.

A handgun is a DEFENSIVE weapon. Its purpose isnt to be a gunslinger...in a combat situation its your last resort once your rifle is out or gone. In real world situations I would consider it even more of a Defensive weapon...from ANY standpoint, LEO or CIVI. The firearm is intended for PROTECTION against an impending or determined threat.

Thanks for the read guys...always nice to get views and opinions on the matter.

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Posted: Aug 26th 2009, 06:00 PM

I totally agree with the Defensive weapon argument and even though we are off topic a bit I will offer this since it pertains to this board:

I think all of our weapons are defensive and that's why I feel very strongly against anyone owning an AR15 as their only home defense weapon. As a part of your collection, yes. AR15 the last thing I would go to in a home defense situation and I hope anyone who comes to this board seeking advice about buying an AR for home defense gets that message. SHotgun is best, pistol a distant second.

For concealed carry then by all means. a 24" AR is, wait a minute you know I am just kidding.

Now, defending your home against multiple armed assailants and you live in an area where your neighbors don't live right next to you, and they are firing on you from a distance, then yes an AR15 is appropriate.

As far as eliminating a threat, there is a very small area of the body that will immediately stop an attack. A shot may be eventually lethal but you need to stop the aggressor before he gets you. Training the "double tap plus one" is essential training. And I am talking of course life or death and no means to retreat to safety. In that case, you want the most power you can handle proficiently. If you can handle a .45 or other larger caliber and you can shoot it proficiently, then yes it is the right caliber for you.

My point was that many different things play into determining "which is the best pistol to carry". Size, strength, ability to spend time training (some firearms require more training to be proficient such as a single action auto), tolerance for noise, agility, hand size, conceal-ability, are just some that come to mind. Without taking all these things into consideration you might find yourself dead with a very nice pistol in your hand.

Now collecting is another issue. I might want a 30-06 pistol because they are fun to shoot and I think they are cool, but I would never consider it as a weapon I would use for defense.

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Posted: Aug 28th 2009, 01:10 AM

Sure, Pilot, what was it you jet-jockeys did on your days off?

Should I divulge or would you rather own up now and admit you're no better than the Marines who held the BG's off?

I got five cards right now, one's a <>3, other's a black Jack, two are tossers, third, try me.

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Posted: Aug 28th 2009, 01:11 AM

Hell, Splat, we're NEVER off topic here.

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Posted: Sep 20th 2009, 04:48 PM

This question goes way back to the days of the "semi-auto vs revolver" debate.

My answer to this is simply........ which one fits in your hand the best? The caliber is important only insofar as how well do you handle the weapon in your hand? If it fits in your hand correctly, then you will probably shoot it pretty well.

Find a handgun that fits in your hand correctly, meaning when you take it out of the holster(and if you don't have a holster, GET ONE!) and it naturally and comfortably fits in your hand, thenyou're ready to deal with the problem confronting you. If your handgun doesn't fit in your hand, it's the wrong handgun for you and you're setting yourself and/or your family up for entering paradise earlier than intended.

If it doesn't fit in your hand correctly and comfortably, the caliber doesn't matter, it's the wrong gun for you.

And it doesn't matter one iota if it's a revolver or a semi-auto. Whatever is comfortable for you is what you need. Now, that's just my opinion. Others may argue a different point of view, which is neither right or wrong. It's an individual preference that only you can answer with your own opinion after you do some research into what is best for you.

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Posted: Sep 21st 2009, 08:42 PM

Valid and accurate point SUNCAT... A 44 magnum that you can't hit shit with is of no use, compared to the .22 that you never miss with. How it fits your hand it a HUGE part of that and I agree 100%.

I fought this very battle with my department's administration a few years back. We issue the Sig P220, and the Chief at the time was of the mind set that everyone should carry the same gun. That's fine if all your officers are between 5'08"/150 pounds and 6'03"/240 pounds... but what happens when you have a female officer who's 4'11"/100 pounds and she can't reach the trigger or control it well enough to hit the side of a bus from the back seat? I call this the "Size 10 shoe mentality"... If that's all you issue, you are screwing yourself and your department. Not everyone wears a size 10 shoe, so you have to have other sizes to fit other people. Once I demonstrated that allowing an officer to choose thier weapon based on what FITS THEM, and every one of them had a huge improvement in qualifcation scores and CONFIDENCE, the department bosses relented and allowed me to issue a couple of other sized guns.

Remember, what feels good in your hand, might not feel the same to someone else...

-Tac

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Posted: Sep 22nd 2009, 03:41 PM

I have ben stopping at the 1991 forum: big mistake! Lots of good thoughts here. A smart man gave me a slightly different version of Tac56's truism - "a 9mm has to expand 25% just to get as big as a .45 starts and it will still only weigh half as much."

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