1911.COM : Veterans, Active Duty & Recruit Hideout : Veterans, Active Duty & Recruit Hideout : Navy E1-E5 now disarmed

Posted: Sep 6th 2010, 11:48 PM

No Naval personnel under the rank of E5 are authorized at this time to stand an armed watch, and all crew served weapons must be under the direct supervision of a khaki.

You got to be fucking kidding me.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2010/09/strategic-corporal-vs-babied-3rd-class.html

In the Marines and the Army, your E4's and E5's are the backbone. They're the pointy tip of the fucking spear. In the Navy, they're now not trusted with weapons.

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Posted: Sep 7th 2010, 12:03 PM

It's Obama's plan to disarm the military.

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Posted: Sep 7th 2010, 02:13 PM

I came very close to getting court martialed over having to stand guard at an ammo dump in the middle of nowhere with no weapon, no transportation and no communications....what was the point? The bird Col. listened to my point and did not charge me. There was not even a fence around the dump. Anybody with a Boy scout knife would have had more firepower than we had.(There were two of us) At least there were two of us that were expendable! Oh, I forgot it was like a 7pm to Sometime after 8 am shift, they never told us when we would be relieved and we had NO food, just water. I am glad nobody had an appendix go bad.

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Posted: Sep 7th 2010, 08:58 PM

Thats a laughable over reaction.

I carried a side arm as an E-4 in the Airforce and all we had to do is qual with it. We weren't combat trained.

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Posted: Sep 7th 2010, 10:59 PM

Think about the militaries of the world... most of them are armed in garrison. We are one of a very small handful of unarmed militaries. You only get your firearm when you go to the range when you are at home. Some groups get their weapons out a little more frequently but not many. Even those units take them out for training and put them back when they are done.

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 05:59 AM

I've said many times that I don't consider the Navy to even be "military". 80%-90% of the Navy doesn't even know how to shoot a rifle. Of course that's a "guesstimate", but I'd wager the number is pretty accurate. I've heard the Navy now offers rifle training in basic, but I've been unable to confirm this.

The Navy is also unlike the other branches of the military in that E-6 and below is considered "junior". A Navy E6 is treated like a Marine Corps E-3 (Lance Corporal). Because the Navy places such an emphasis on it's E7 and above corps...complete with total and utter segregation of ranks (just look at the major uniform change which happens when E7 is reached), E-1 through E6 is nothing more than peons. Fact of life, fact of the Navy. Anyone who wants to argue the point with me will be flogged until your viewpoint changes. :-)

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 09:56 AM

If I'm not mistaken on this Recoil, I believe that once you get to E-7 you get your very own, very special mess on board as well. No one allowed in but the Chiefs. Unless of course you have permission to enter from a chief. Also, I hear that the best food on board is in the Chief's Mess.

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 04:45 PM

I'll argue the point. I don't know where some of you are getting your info but you are SADLY misinformed. I was in The Navy when you learned how to use the M-14 and the .45 Pistol. Before I left active service I was Work Center Supervisor #2 Main Machinery Space U.S.S. Raleigh LPD-1. I was a Boiler Technican 2nd class (a LOWLY E-5 as some put it) and had direct supervision of 20-25 men, a position normally held by an E-6 So I wasn't a EFFIN Peon. And I was NOT treated as a lowly E-3. Also you had to pass Navywide written Exams to move up in Rank or attend School, starting at E-2. You weren't just Promoted for time in Rank. By the way, this ship had a crew of over 520 men and Officers and could carry 900+ Marines for Amphib Ops. So it was not a small Command. Yes Chief's have their own Mess, but the best food is in Officer Country. So unless you have Actually Served in The Navy, do some Research.

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 05:58 PM

Recoil did serve in the Navy, actually.

Anyway, though, the best food -is- in the CPO mess, anymore. The wardroom gets the same food that's served on the mess decks. The Chiefs do too, but the MS's (CS's now) take a little extra care with their food. And Pyro, yes, you do have to have permission from a CPO to enter the Chiefs' mess. Even officers - CO and XO included - have to have permission.

I have to take some exception to the idea that blueshirts are peons, too. I mean, it's going to vary some from command to command, obviously, but I never saw it happen. One of my ships even had a full underway watch section that was blueshirts only - OOD underway, JOOD, Conning Officer, CICWO, EOOW, etc. OOD was an E6, EOOW was an E5. The others were a mix of E5 and below. That couldn't happen if the blueshirts were looked at in the way that Recoil suggests.

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 07:18 PM

Hey, I was only adding some information that I had learned recently by several crew members of an aircraft carrier to include, one of the Captains, one of the CAGs, a couple CPOs, and even the Command Master Chief that served in the gulf war on the ship. It was a special day when I took my son to the Midway Aircraft Carrier Museum. Sure, I wasn't in the Navy first hand but these guys telling their stories were. The captain of the Midway was the one who told my son and I about a story where he wouldn't enter the Chief's Mess without permission from one of the Senior Chiefs. He also was the one who told me about better food being served in the CPO Mess. As the Captain of the Midway for 18 months during the Gulf War, I figured he new what he was talking about.

But hey, what do I know... I only served in the Army for 21 years.

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Posted: Sep 8th 2010, 10:34 PM

CJ?

I love these love quarrels.

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Posted: Sep 9th 2010, 06:04 AM

Served in the Navy from 1984 to 2004. 20 yrs and 10 days to be exact. Highest rank attained, E-7. Does the Navy treat E-6 and below as a "menial worker or drudge" (one of the many definitions of "peon"), yes. It's a sad fact, but yes.

My Marine Corps reference... ok, check it out. If a Marine Corps E3 tells a group of E1's and E2's, hell even junior E3's to move: THEY MOVE! I've seen Navy E6's tell E4's or E5's to move and they almost have to put a boot in their asses to make it happen. Rank discipline in the Navy sucks. It was that way for the 20 years I was in, I doubt it's changed in the last 6 years!

I've also seen E6's (who knew what they were talking about) try and explain something to junior officers and the officers not listen. Then, when a chief said it, it was now gospel...straight out of Davy Jones' book written in blood. The Navy's problem is because the Navy differentiates between E7 and E6-E1. Just look at the uniforms/mess hall, etc. There is no other branch of service which has a uniform change as drastic as the Navy when it comes to E7 and above.

The Navy E7 selection is board appointed. You have to become initiated after selection. No other branch of service does this. I could give you examples all day (from experience), but won't.

As for the Navy's "military" experience when it comes to shooting, it's pitiful. From 1984 to 2004, M16 training wasn't given at basic training. My "pistol" training in basic was a 1911 which had been modified to shoot .22 caliber ammo. My training with small arms/explosives/demolitions came from my tours as an EOD Technician/Diver, then in later years as a Military Policeman.

Yes, I did serve, yes, I did retire.

Recoil

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Posted: Sep 9th 2010, 08:43 AM

Right on brother! Some day, you and I need to share some dive stories.

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Posted: Sep 30th 2010, 07:17 PM

Roomie............. that was awesome! Where has CJ been anyway? Did he get ticked off and take his ball home?

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Posted: Sep 30th 2010, 08:57 PM

In a nutshell, CJ was fired.

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Posted: Sep 30th 2010, 08:59 PM

He made the mistake of calling out another legitimate vet. After having warned him about a half dozen times, I had to call his ass out (service BS'er of some order) and he moved out on his own accord.
When he's telling our vets that they are wrong because:
Marines don't have MP's
Bushmaster only makes AR-15's and they don't make AR-15's in 25mm caliber (when a picture of a bushmaster 25mm deck gun was included in OP)

+ Telling some people that he's a bell ringer and others that hes a SEAL or Recon

Then continuously hounding legitimate veterans after repeated warning...

Adds up to an equation where "foxtrot" is forced to rip apart a user on public forum.
Don't know what service record he had, but he was not honest about it.

ETA: looks like Recoil beat me to it.

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Posted: Oct 1st 2010, 11:18 AM

I knew he hadn't been around for a while now. Too bad, because he did bring some good stuff to the table occasionally.

His loss. All he had to do was play well with others, which, if in fact he was a Marine, or any other servicemember for that matter, he would have had to learn through hard work and team work in basic training and AIT(or what ever it is that Marines go through after their basic).

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:10 AM

I retired after 21+ years, five classes of ships, and two tours of Instructor duty. I'm raising the BS flag on this one... As the Leading Gunners Mate, my commands security teams, and boarding teams were the best on the water front. I have three flag letters of Commendation from Admirals to prove it. While the engineering, supply and admin guys received the standard semi-annual gun quals to be a watchstander, the Combat Systems guys were trained to run with the big dogs. The one thing I wil agree with is that politics is killing our armed forces!! As a just for instance, I won a $500.00 bet from the Combat Systems Officer in charge of the San Clemente gun range that my gun crew could and would hit a Septar(radio controlled target boat) if they brought it within 1,200yds of the ship. The end result was; the radar reflective mast was shot off, and enough 25mm rounds penetrated the hull, "which is supposed to be non-sinking" that by the time they got it back into the channel it was underwater... I will dig up the pics and post for all non-believers to behold. As a Range Master for over 17 years I monitored every branch of service at one time or another, and this I can tell you for sure, there are "many" so called "man eaters" which are in my opinion Combat Inefective!! All the services have changed, sadly it has been for the worst.. The men and women on the seas and in the desert right now have my full respect and sympathy.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:25 AM

So, Chief, I'm not sure ... with the BS flag, are you saying the situation is bullshit, or are you saying that it's bad gouge?

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 05:41 AM

I'm sure the Chief meant he trained his men well in the art of shooting badguys off of boats. However, this was the exception more than the rule.

In 2004, the year I hung up my cover, 80 % of the people I knew on ships or in airwing, had never operated an M16 or M4. Pistol qualifications were few and far between in most commands and emphasis wasn't placed on it being priority. Don't get me wrong, some ships are wound tightly and have GMC's lighting a fire under their asses to be the best. My hat's off to you Chief.

My assertion in my previous post was directed at the Navy as a whole. Pick 20 random sailors from any ship and you'll have 15-16 that have no clue in operating an M16/M4 weapon system. M9, you'll have higher numbers, but won't go over 50%.

The Navy has rates/watchstations which require shooting qualifications, but that rate total is small in comparison to "everyone else". That's all I'm saying.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 10:45 AM

You may have been serving on the wrong ships then, Recoil. Were you pretty exclusively on carriers or amphibs? On smallboys, when we did quals and fam fires and whatnot, we took the whole crew. Every single member of the crew on both of my ships qualified with M14 and M9 and Mossy 500.

Everyone E1 - E6 and O1 - O2 was subject to standing an armed watch inport. In 6-section duty, with an FFG or destroyer crew, you can almost guarantee that you'll be standing at armed watch per duty day if you fall into that group of ranks. Not only did we have to provide shipboard watchstanders, but we also had to provide armed pier security.

I never saw M16's and M4's in Mayport. I'm pretty sure that all the ships there had M14's still - I know that both of my ships did, and when I was COG for the pier security, I never saw other ships' gate guards with anything other than an M14.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:25 PM

I rode 3 carriers back in the early days of my career, never was on any tin cans. Spent a lot of time up at the piers in Norfolk though, never saw a sailor with a rifle, only shotties. I think the situation you talk about (smaller ships' security) comes from the fact there are no Marines onboard. On carriers, most of the ships' security comes from them.

Airwing sailors aren't qualified with M16's.

It would be plausible that the Navy has stepped up it's qualifications process in light of all the hijackings occurring near Somolia and the possibilities of other countries pursuing easy money in that manner.

Has anyone been able to confirm that Navy recruits are now being taught to shoot the M16/M4 in basic? I've heard they are, but nothing substantial written anywhere to corroborate.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:29 PM

On a recent tour of the USS Midway in San Diego, we were told that the Marines are playing less of a role in modern ship security and that the Navy is training their own. It seems the roles/missions are changing and/or the budgets are.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:38 PM

Obviously not a navy guy... but I would suspect some changes were made after the USS Cole incident.

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Posted: Oct 26th 2010, 01:38 PM

After 9/11, we had some substantial changes to inport security, even in homeport.

I don't know if you're famliar with the layout of Mayport at all, but the way it worked was that each ship's duty section provided a team for one of the gates for their section of the quay wall that they were tied up at. This team was armed with rifle, shotgun and pistol. Each gate had a khaki or (I think) an E6 as Chief of the Guard. (I can't remember for sure about E6 as COG at the gate.) There was an overall COG that had responsibility for all gates and piers, and spent his watch roving in a vehicle, checking on all the gates and observing the general state of affairs, and making contact also with the OOD's for each ship. There was also a RHIB full of armed sailors in the basin, conducting anti-swimmer patrols. There may have been - I can't remember for sure - one ship with her sonar warmed up at all times, too, for anti-swimmer work. At that time, each ship had a whole passel of armed watchstanders, above and below decks. I don't know how things are set up now - this was how it was in 2002 / 2003 though. I got out in 2003.

Now that I think about it, I can't remember if JFK provided her own gate guards or not. For at least part of the time I don't think that she did, and that her gate guards came from the 'cans. I seem to recall there was much bitching about that, but I just can't remember for sure. I know that no Marines were used for the purpose. In fact, I'm not even 100% sure that she even had a permanent party Marine det onboard. I can't recall ever having seen any Marines as part of ship's company there.

Fox- After COLE's mishap, there were some changes to the way that security was handled coming into and leaving port. There were a lot more crew-served weapons mounted during sea and anchor detail, and when making port visits, even domestic ones.

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